This is where I currently am with my research to date. You may as well make a cup of tea because this is a long read!
Hello Derek,
Thank you for the tree. So we have a John Ryan who married a Mackey. Then John, born c. 1850, married Ellen Ryan? Where did they live? Newport, Co. Tipperary Newport
We need to identify where John born c 1850 was living & work back through parish records. Can you let me know about that? Basically, if you do not have that information, we should work back though the marriages. It looks like Tipperary Limerick or Killaloe. Parish records there are at the National Library.
Regards
John McDermot
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Hello again, Derek
Ignore that last mail. It is slightly confusing. Here is a response to “Gurtane”:
I am trying to identify Gurtane. I think it is Gurteen in Latteragh parish. Newport Newport
1865. Mary, Newport
1866. Joseph, Emly
1866. John, Newport
1871. Charles, Newport
1879. Lizzie, Boolabane.
I think we can ignore Joseph. Same parents’ names but different dates of birth in the same year. So the others are probably children of the same couple, though we can leave Lizzie for now, just in case.
As I said, the parish records of the diocese of Cashel/Emly are restricted. The above records are civil records at the General Register Office. They start 1864. They probably had other children before Mary, though one might check the Marriage Index in 1864, just in case. Latteragh/Aghnameadle is in Killaloe, so those records are available at the National Library, if that is the right parish. The R.C. parish of Tooomevarra, starting 1831. Cannot be the right parish, as Newport Newport
Can you tell me then where “Gurtane” is in relation on any other places, so I can get a fix on the right parish. Then we can finally get started.
Regards
John McDermot
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Thanks John,
Ill chat with my Dad this weekend and he should be
able to shed some light on things.
Gurtane is in the Parish of Newport as far as I know.
However according to the tree I sent u John Ryan and
Ellen Ryans only children are Michael, James, John and
Thomas so I think you are on the wrong track there.
Regards
Derek
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Hello Derek,
The R.C. parish of Newport/Birdhill is the civil parish of Kilvellane.
In Cashel diocese, so the parish records are on restricted access. There
are civil records from 1864. The family should appear in those records.
Give me some idea of dates. Was Ellen Ryan born Ryan, or not?
Regards
John McDermot
John,
Yes Ryan with the nickname "Daddy" not sure of exact
spelling. I’m thinking dates of approx 1870-1880 for
John Ryan, Ellens Husband, she would have been a good
bit younger maybe 1890. (My granddad Thomas was born
in 1920 (he is the youngest of that family) so his
mother would have had to be of child bearing age.
If its any help John I can ring u & go through what i
know.
Thanks
Derek
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Hello Derek,
I see the following civil records of children born to John Ryan & Ellen
Mackey of Newport
11 May 1874. John
So that is them. They probably married in the years before 1869, so
there would be a civil record of that, giving addresses & fathers' names &
occupations.
Ellen's father may be Patrick Mackey of Lackamore, Kilvellane. Thady
Mackey
was also there in the Valuation. There was a Michael Ryan at Lackamore
also.
The name Ryan is very common in this parish.
The John who married Ellen Mackey was hardly born 1770-1800. He was
probably
born c. 1850, as you say. So his father is probably not the man born
before 1800. There is a generation in between. The marriage record of John &
Ellen would give us more information on that, namely John's address & his
father's name. We should start there.
John, born 1874, married Ellen Ryan, you say? Their son, Thomas, was
born 1920. Hard to say when they married. C. 1910?
Give me a call anytime after 6 in the evening, if you like.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sorry didnt get a chance to call last night, just
started a new job down in Cork
What u have said below does seem to make sense alright
and we seem to have a starting point.
My Dad is visiting my grandad tonight so ill get him
to check what u have given me and if things seem to be
stacking up then we can see where we will go from
there. You mention tracking down the marriage cert of
John Ryan and Ellen Mackey, I presume that means
physically going to where its stored or is there
another way?
Thanks
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
The record would have to be searched for in the Index of Marriages at
the General Register Office here in Dublin
records, which probably would not give as much detail.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hi John,
My Dad spoke to my grand-dad about what u found and we
think it is right. Re John Ryan and Ellen Mackey and
their children Catherine, Micheal, Patrick and John
(1874). My grandad does not remember Micheal but he
may have died young. Patrick went to America
stayed on the farm.
I have some additional information to add as well.
John (1874) died 1st Aug 1964 and his wife Ellen Ryan
"nee Ryan" died 4th Dec 1952 .
Also Catherine above married O'Rourke (a photographer)
and he was from Waterpark, Bunkey, Knockannbawn in
So hope this helps. Also can you give me an estimated
cost for extracting the marriage cert from the Index
of Marriages at the General Register Office and of
what other information would be helpful.
My grandad also believes that John 1874 would have got
married to Ellen Ryan around 1910. Also would there be
any use in getting the marriage cert of my grand-dad
so we could start looking at some of my grand-mothers
side of the family as well? Or any other cert at the
same time.
Thanks
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
Patrick Ryan's immigration details may be on www.ellisislandrecords.org
It may take a bit of searching, but it may be there, if he emigrated
after 1892.
Index to Griffith Ireland
Rourke, Matthew County : Limerick
Parish : Killeenagarriff
Location : Knockanbaun
The R.C. parish of Fedamore. Parish records at the National Library.
I can have the marriage record of John Ryan & Ellen Mackey extracted,
check for the marriage record of John Ryan to Ellen Ryan c. 1910 & check the
1911 Census records at the addresses given in the marriages. The marriage
record would have Ellen Ryan's address & her father's name. He would be in the
1901 & 1911 Census. It would take two hours. My charges are 60 Euro per
hour.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
You won't learn much more about Patrick Ryan from Ellis Island . He
Was going to his uncle John Mackey in New York
details on the site. There was a John Mackey living in Manhattan Ireland
1844, in the 1880 Census. Wife Mary, children Frank & Lilly. There was
another John Mackey in Manhattan Ireland
born Ireland New York
The 60 Euro per hour includes the searches & records at the General
Register Office. Five year searches cost 2 Euro, records 4 Euro each
there. Normally I also charge for these, so my fee is already a discount in
that regard. Of course I will get you copies of the records & Census
returns. You can pay by either credit card or personal cheque.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
A preliminary report. I found the marriage record of John Ryan & Ellen Mackey. Here are the details:
They married at the church in Newport
I checked the Marriage Index for John Jnr’s marriage to Ellen Ryan. I found a matching reference for a John Ryan & Ellen Ryan in the district of Nenagh (as in the above record) in 1908. Unfortunately the GRO were not able to provide me with the record, as there is some problem with the marriage records in 1908. I have to write to Roscommon, where the head office of the GRO is now located, to get a copy. It should not take too long, but be advised. I have never come across this before. That record is important to find out who Ellen Ryan’s father was & where he lived. I will check the Census returns for Gortshane & Lackamore in the meantime. The number of Ryans at Gortshane (Kilnarath civil parish) – of which there are three parts, Middle, West & East – is amazing. Michael & John Ryan, both Bawn, were living at Gortshane Middle in the Valuation of 1851. Michael had a house & 14 acres, John a house & 12 acres. Thady & Patrick Mackey were living at Lackamore (Kilvellane civil parish). Thady shared 100 acres with others. Patrick had 43 acres. I will be in touch.
Regards
John McDermot
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Thanks John, thats some good information there.
There are an awful lot of ryans around newport
alright.
I still have a gran-aunt alive that would be a sister
of my grandmother Mary Hourigan. I should be visiting
her soon enough so may be able to get more info on
that side of the family which I will pass on.
Ellen Ryan (Daddy) was seemingly from a place called
Thornhill and had at least a brother and a sister,
both of whom went to america
Hello Derek,
I took a look at the 1901 & 1911 Census returns for Gortshane this
morning.
Ellen Ryan, a widow, aged 55, was living at Gortshane Middle in 1901,
with son John, aged 28 & daughter Elizabeth, aged 20.
This is the family. In 1911 John was the head of household, aged 38,
wife Ellen, aged 38. Married 3 years, they had children John, aged 2 &
Michael, 6
months. Ellen Ryan, his mother, aged 73 was living with them.
That would seem to confirm that the marriage record from 1908 is the
correct one. I have sent for it.
Thornhill is in Kilcomenty civil parish. George & Robert Thorn were
living there in the Valuation. There were Ryans nearby at Shanbally &
Touknockane.
We'll see what address is given for Ellen on the marriage record.
Regards
John McDermot
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Hello Derek,
The marriage record arrived. Roscommon is awake, I am glad to see. Here are the details:
They married at the church in Newport
Index to Griffith Ireland
Ryan, ??? County : Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Comment : Widow
Ryan, Denis County : Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, Honoria County Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, John County : Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, Michael County Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, Michael County Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Comment : Tim
Ryan, Patrick County : Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, Thomas County Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
Ryan, William County : Tipperary
Parish : Kilnarath
Location : Castlewaller
So, the 1901 Census should have the details of Ellen’s family. John Elliott was also recorded there in the Valuation. I will check the 1901 Census.
Regards
John McDermot
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There certainly are a lot of Ryans,
Slight discrepancy in that John Ryan is listed as 30
would have been 34 but Im sure that is normal when
filling out forms in those days.
Elliott seems like an unusual name in the area, ive
never heard anyone talking about them.
Will chat to my dad this evening about the results.
Thanks
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
I had a look at the 1901 Census in Castlewaller. Ellen, aged 20, was
living with her mother Mary, a widow, aged 60 & siblings Patrick 35, Thomas 28
& Michael 26. She is the only Ellen(named Ellie) in the Ryan families in
Castlewaller in 1901.
The 1911 Census shows that (John &) Mary Ryan had 9 children, seven
still living. Mary, aged 71 then. Thomas 20, Michael 38 & Dennis 36 were
still living at home, all single.
Take a look at the IGI for John & Mary Ryan records from Newport
may have been a Ryan also. One other possibility seems to be Mary
Stapleton. I think Mary Ryan more likely though. Have a look yourself.
Don't be too concerned about the ages. They vary quite a bit in
records, I find. People did not often know when they were born exactly. They did
not celebrate birthdays as we do today.
Will you send me your postal address. I want to send on the records.
Regards
John McDermot
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John thanks for that,
Ya i kinda figured that myself regards ages.
What is the IGI??
What do you think the next step would be?
My postal address is
Xxxxx
Regards
Derek
Hello Derek,
I will send on the records. As I explained, the parish records of
www.tfhr.org.
Civil records after 1863 are at the GRO. Census records, etc, at the
National Archives. Take a look at the material I have uncovered & let
me know if you want me to research further. I have definitely used up the
initial two hours.
Regards
John McDermot
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No thats great John you have done great work for the
two hours thanks very much.
I have put together an updated family tree Ill
on.
Im just wondering from what you have seen so far how
much further we could go back and what kind of time it
will take.
As I said before I will get information on the
Hourigan side and we will definitely have a look at
that side too.
Thanks again
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
I have put the material in the post. Look it over & let me know what
you think. It all depends on what further records are available. You can
let me have what you have on the Hourigan side. We would probably have to
start with the marriage there, then go back to the Census records, etc. It will
depend on where she was born, etc. I may be away until the beginning of
September. If you do not receive a reply until then, don't worry.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
John,
That is grand, the hourigans were from a place called
annagh, again in the parish of Newport
granddad Martin Hourigan was nicknamed "the Yank". I
think he spent quiet a good bit of time in America
Maybe u could find some info on the Ellis Island site
with that. There are a few Hourigans in Annagh as well
but I dont think it will be as hard to find as all the
ryans. My grandmother hourigan died back in the 70s so
I was hoping to get some info from my granaunt.
So actually bringing some of this info to her might be
a good boost.
Anyway let me know what u find and the cost to
proceed.
Thanks
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
A Martin Hourigan from North Tipperary arrived in New York
aged 22.
He was going to his sister, Bridget Hourigan, living 47 Colby Street
So he was born c. 1890/1. Bridget may have been older, though she was
still single, it seems. They were probably much of an age. A Bridget Hourigan
arrived in New York
Thomas(?) Hourigan in Rochester
you.
See if it Thomas. It may not be. Either another brother, or someone
from a previous generation. The Ellisisland records start 1892.
So where does that leave us? Your mother was Mary Hourigan, Martin's
daughter. When was she born, do you know? He came back from America
sometime after 1913. How long after? When would he have married?
There were Hourigans at Castlewaller in the Valuation. Including a
James.
Martin's marriage record would give us more information. I think we are
looking at another two hours here, really.
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hi John,
Just got a small bit of info off my dad, Mary
Hourigans date of birth would have been the 14th April
1919 & she was the second oldest in her family so if
Martin came home after 1913 that would have worked
out. Martin Jr was the oldest in the family.
Also my dad said that he did go out to a sister in
presume in comparison to Ireland
she was single then it is possible she married well
out there).
They were definitely the Hourigans from Annagh not
Castlewaller. So possibly you could do a search for
the birthcert and I guess the marriage cert would have
been between 1913 and 1917/1918.
Thanks
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
Okay, I will check for Mary Hourigan's birth record & her parents'
marriage.
There are townlands named Annagh in Lorrha, Dorrha & Kilbarron in Co.
Index to Griffith Ireland
Hourigan, Denis County : Limerick
Parish : Abington
Location : Annagh
Hourigan, John County : Limerick
Parish : Abington
Location : Annagh
Hourigan, John, Jr. County : Limerick
Parish : Abington
Location : Annagh
Who did Martin Hourigan marry, did we establish?
Regards
John McDermot
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
I checked the Births Index at the GRO. Your grandmother was born in 1918:
The Index also had records of Patrick A. Hourigan (mother Fleming), born 25 October 1919; Martin was born 18 December 1916 .
Martin & Bridget married in 1916:
They married in the R.C. church at Murroe. The witnesses were Timothy O’Meara & Mary Josephine O’Malley.
Martin Hourigan did not spend long in America
I checked the 1901 & 1911 Census returns for Annagh.
1901
Catherine, James & Martin Hourigan were householders at Annagh.
1. Martin Hourigan, aged 60, farmer & gamekeeper, wife Elizabeth, aged 58, children Mary 30, Johanna 29, Margaret 28, Martin 23, Helena 18, John 17, Sarah 11. Pat Rainsford, nephew, aged 10, was also living with them.
2. Catherine Hourigan, aged 72, farmer, widow, son Thomas 30. Bridget Troy 30 & William Sullivan 18, servants.
3. James Hourigan, aged 80, farmer, wife Catherine 72, children Patt 30, Agnes 25. John Sullivan 17, servant & Michael Ryan, 35, carpenter, boarder.
By 1911 Martin Hourigan Snr had died:
Elizabeth Hourigan, aged 70, widow, children Martin 30, Helena
Patrick Hourigan, aged 47 was married with a family. You can look over those details yourself. Also another householder, Thomas Hourigan, aged 40, single, who had his nephew Patrick Nicholas 24 & niece Bridget Nicholas 21. living with him.
The IGI has the following records of children born to Martin Hourigan & Elizabeth Wixtead:
1866. James, Murroe.
1867. Hanoria.
1869. Denis. [Married Bridget M. Rainsford 28 June 1901 in Boston , MA
1871. Margaret
1872. Catherine
1874. Hanoria (they first must have died]
1877. Bridget. Annagh.
1878. Sarah.
1880. Eliza. Annagh.
There were Wixteads living at Murroe, Abington in the Valuation, so the families were neighbours. I think Denis may have been Martin Hourigan’s father. He had a house & one acre at Annagh in the valuation. Or John, perhaps. He had a house & 69 acres. John Hourigan Jnr had a house & 48 acres. James Wixtead of Muroe may have been Elizabeth
Let me know what you think. I can send on the records. I have charged two hours, 120 Euro, to your card.
Regards
John McDermot
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John,
This is very exciting information. Thanks very much
for researching it.
A couple of questions?
Any idea what Patrick Flemings wifes name is?
How are the additional hourigans in the 1901 and 1911
census attached to Martin (Snr & Jnr) families?
ie James and Catherine Hourigan in 1901.
Also do you think it was a coincidenace that James's
wife was 72 and called Catherine and the other
Catherine was also 72 (Could they be the same person)?
They both names servants in their household which
would be a big deal for our family.
1869. Denis. [Married Bridget M. Rainsford 28 June
> 1901 in Boston , MA
Also these relatives must have went to America
you look them up under the Ellis Island records?
This is more than likely the Bridget Hourigan that
Martin Hourigan went to in America
Also is it possible to be sure was it Denis or John
was Martin Snr father?
I presume because it is a less common name that is
easier to go back farther on the Hourigan side.
From the two sets of info you have given me do you
think we can go back much farther?
Anyway thanks again, I know that above isnt very
realistic but I would like to go back further if it is
possible.
Derek
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Hello Derek,
I think Bridget's mother may have been either Mary McCarthy or Honora
Kelly,
as Patrick Flemings with these wives had children at Murroe. The first
couple had Thomas in 1865 & Patrick in 1880. The second had Mathew in
1864.
I think the first couple more likely.
James Hourigan & Catherine Ryan of Murroe had Johanna 1865, Sarah 1868
&
Anne 1872. Probably the couple at Annagh in 1901. The other Catherine
Hourigan was a widow then. A Michael Hourigan & Catherine O'Shea of
City had a son Thomas in 1864. I don't know if it might be them.
You have Denis, John & John Hourigan Jnr at Annagh in the Valuation.
One of them was Martin's father,s would have completed his family by the
1860s.
John may be a son of Denis, or a brother. John Jnr may be a son of
John, or Denis. James Hourigan in 1901 was 20 years older than Martin. He might
still be a brother of his, or a son of John, perhaps. The parish records
start1814. They are in Emly diocese, so on restricted access. You could ask
the parish priest if you could look at them.
No Denis Hourigan is recorded going through Ellis Island from 1892 on,
strangely. Is there something wrong with Martin Hourigan describing Pat
Rainsford as his nephew in 1901 & Elizabeth Hourigan describing John
Rainsford as her grandson in 1911? We may assume the latter was Denis's
son.
So Pat is the son of a sister of Martin's. Rainsford is an Abington
family also. David Rainsford of Murroe arrived in Ellis Island in 1900, aged
21.
Bridget Hourigan did not go to America
his sister Bridget, not his brother Denis. Denis was supposedly married by
1910.
He is not in the 1920 American Census but is in Boston
Census.
Aged 37, wife Bridget, children Edmund 8 & Genevieve 3. Denis went to
another port. Boston Boston
with
Frank & Ella Suran. She was a servant there. She arrived in 1899 (sic).
www.irishgenealogy.ie shows Martin Hourigans born in Co. Limerick in
1834, 1838 (?), 1839 & 1840. He would be one of these. Elizabeth Wixteds were
born 1837 & 1844. The parish records are the next step, at any rate in both
the case of the Hourigans & the Ryans. The Ryans will be the more difficult
to unravel, as you say. The Tithe Books would list householders c. 1830.
One may be able to go back a bit further with the parish records. We know
Ellen Mackey was born c. 1844, John Ryan c. 1824. irishgenealogy has Ellen
Mackeys born 1824, 1847, 1848 & 1849. John Ryan is too common a name to
speculate on. The parish records are the place to look for his family.
If you can check out the parish records, we can possibly work back from
there. I will put the records in the post.
Regards
John McDermot
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John,
Thanks for everything you have given me to date.
I was wondering, I would like to present this out in a
nice format (rather than excel) Ive often seen Family
tree packages in computer shops. Is there any you
would recommend, I know a guy who has an A0 printer so
was going to get some copies made.
It would be nice to be able to give them as presents
plus I might be able to round up some help to go look
at the parish records.
Thanks again.
Derek
____________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Derek,
There are a lot of software packages for creating family trees. I have
one
called Generations Grand Suite 8.0 (UK), which I use. It is quite good
&
does charts also. Family Tree is a big firm also. They do the Primary
Valuation, etc. See if you can find either of those.
Good luck with the parish records.
Regards
John McDermot
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